Curse

mtm · May 29, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

I see the witch hunting continues.

It still amazes me how much anger and disbelief people show towards the very game that they play.

There are many games around, and my personal opinion is that ArenaNet made a very good game, and they addressed many of the issues that I as a player had with other games. I also find them to be much more friendly, and they have a person dedicated to in-game communication with the players. They also DO read the players' opinions and DO come up with a solution to most of reasonable ideas/complains.

I see however, that still some people think they are very smart by saying, in short, "they just want to win more money, everything they do is another way to sell more games". It's usually the people that at first place whine about bots, then when a ban comes they start whining about the ban being only a means to boost sales.

Anet depends on making money. That's how the developers get paid, that's how they are able to pay their rents, cars, whatever. Still, there's huge differences in the way companies treat their customers. Ever tried to get an official reply to ANY issue from Blizzard, let's say?

Also, Anet designed Guild Wars. It's their game. Your characters, in game items, gold etc are their property. I think it's schizofrenic to start saying , more or less, that the same people that designed and are running the game that you like so much (since you even take the effort to involve in lengthy discussions about it) are bloodsuckers that think only of how to make you spend more money, to update the game so that it becomes worse and worse, and to "nerf" (another word that I'm starting to hate) everything that people like about it.

They have made a great game and they put lots of effort in making it run smoothly, in responding our questions and requests, in keeping the economy of the game healthy, in keeping gameplay interesting, in keeping a target for players regardless of their preffered side of the gameplay.

They do make mistakes, but they also know to admit and correct them.

Lastly, "PR" is very different than what GG does. And honestly I don't understand why some people's point seems to be to offend someone. PR is a function, and you make it sound like an insult. You can do PR and be a good professional, with moral values and moral boundaries, and you can have the same label and be immoral and manipulative.

Also, it helps a bit to try to get in their shoes: Assume you ARE anet. What's your objective, to destroy your very own product? To remove functions/features that keep player in the game? To sell 1000 more copies by banning people? Buy a management book (or hell, search online) and find out why this is a no-no.

Sometimes, there are no black evil monsters everywhere. And we have to credit people who are not. Not throw mud.

Regards.

Fist_of_God · May 29, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

Shame on A-net acting for their own self interests! If they keep that up, they may be able to keep servers up and running, adding new content, and even holding special in-game events that their paid developers come up with!

But here's the thing: 1,000 copies of GW is less than 1/10th of 1% of the number of copies they've sold - a mere pittance! The banning of the bots has more to do with keeping the vast majority of their customer base happy so that THEY will continue to buy additional chapters.

50% or more of players not buying future chapters because A-Net shows no regard for the community by letting the bot problem (among other problems) go > selling 1,000 more copies (or even 20,000 for that matter) to bot farmers.

Sorry but your logic fails here, just as much as some think mine has at this juncture of the thread. I have yet to see 1 person quit because of others botting. I am sure you lose no sleep at all, as well as many others, over how many botters are in the game at any give point in time, much less quit the game because of that particular reason.

Fist_of_God · May 29, 2006, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtm

I see the witch hunting continues.

It still amazes me how much anger and disbelief people show towards the very game that they play.

There are many games around, and my personal opinion is that ArenaNet made a very good game, and they addressed many of the issues that I as a player had with other games. I also find them to be much more friendly, and they have a person dedicated to in-game communication with the players. They also DO read the players' opinions and DO come up with a solution to most of reasonable ideas/complains.

I see however, that still some people think they are very smart by saying, in short, "they just want to win more money, everything they do is another way to sell more games". It's usually the people that at first place whine about bots, then when a ban comes they start whining about the ban being only a means to boost sales.

Anet depends on making money. That's how the developers get paid, that's how they are able to pay their rents, cars, whatever. Still, there's huge differences in the way companies treat their customers. Ever tried to get an official reply to ANY issue from Blizzard, let's say?

Also, Anet designed Guild Wars. It's their game. Your characters, in game items, gold etc are their property. I think it's schizofrenic to start saying , more or less, that the same people that designed and are running the game that you like so much (since you even take the effort to involve in lengthy discussions about it) are bloodsuckers that think only of how to make you spend more money, to update the game so that it becomes worse and worse, and to "nerf" (another word that I'm starting to hate) everything that people like about it.

They have made a great game and they put lots of effort in making it run smoothly, in responding our questions and requests, in keeping the economy of the game healthy, in keeping gameplay interesting, in keeping a target for players regardless of their preffered side of the gameplay.

They do make mistakes, but they also know to admit and correct them.

Lastly, "PR" is very different than what GG does. And honestly I don't understand why some people's point seems to be to offend someone. PR is a function, and you make it sound like an insult. You can do PR and be a good professional, with moral values and moral boundaries, and you can have the same label and be immoral and manipulative.

Also, it helps a bit to try to get in their shoes: Assume you ARE anet. What's your objective, to destroy your very own product? To remove functions/features that keep player in the game? To sell 1000 more copies by banning people? Buy a management book (or hell, search online) and find out why this is a no-no.

Sometimes, there are no black evil monsters everywhere. And we have to credit people who are not. Not throw mud.

Regards.

You make some valid points, and I do agree with some of them(ie..anet making a great game and such). However, just as in any corporation, its all about the bottom line, its not so much about how well they are treating you, as it is what they want you to believe to be so. Unfortunately, some of the early posts by a few whom quickly jumped in to defend my opinion were deleted, because they were somewhat abbrasive to the mods I would suppose. They understood that my opinion was based upon their(anet) underlying motive over the long run(not that they agreed with me, but understood why I was inclined to believe what I did). Everyone keeps throwing around 1000 banned as a nonaccumalitive number, but I reiterate that it is on going and will reach into the tens of thousands, if not more.

The only thing I have ever been angry about is not putting auction houses in chapter 2 and larger storages. I like A-net's product, but that doesn't mean I whole-heartedly believe everything they do is for my benefit, and not theirs. Yet, I never started a thread about it. Sure, I may have mentioned it in response to an Anet thread, but you would be hardpressed to find more than 2-3 anti anet threads that I have ever even posted in, and I have been a part of the gw community for almost 1 year now.

You make some valid points, but nothing that would change my opinion about the corporate bottom line.

Demesis · May 29, 2006, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fist_of_God

Sorry but your logic fails here, just as much as some think mine has at this juncture of the thread. I have yet to see 1 person quit because of others botting. I am sure you lose no sleep at all, as well as many others, over how many botters are in the game at any give point in time, much less quit the game because of that particular reason.

Botting ruins the game economy, and when the game economy's screwed, it isn't fun anymore and people will quit.

Tijger · May 29, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fist_of_God

I will continue to believe the corporate norm for this type of action..increased sales..the bottom line, call it whatever you want. Anet doesn't care as much about you as they do the bottom line..you can believe what you like. Furthermore, they banned over 1000, we don't know the exact number, and its going to be a continuing effort. So its not just 1000..it will be thousands and ..maybe tens of thousands, and in the end.. that will be better for A-net's profits.

You do realise that sticker price does not equal profits, right? The actual profit per game is very likely less then 5 dollars which makes your grand conspiracy theory rather...well..laughable.

Going by your math that would come to the incredible amount of $30,000 a year, w00t! They can employ a part time coder for that!

Sorry, but your theory is silly beyond belief.

Nymph of Meliai · May 29, 2006, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Really and truly, you can farm and bot anything in GW. The spawns arent human and they cant adapt or change builds/armors etc,

Botters will stop when they arent making money. Simple.

This is wholly up to the community. Anet can only kill so many bots.

Spawns do adapt - when I first did a run from LA to Sanctum it was very easy using holy veil to protect against wises but within 2 runs the wises were stripping holy veil before hitting me with their spells - still very easy but it shows that spawns do adapt very quickly if given the correct spells.

Plus of course Anet keeps nerfing stuff. Recently I have seen a lot of spawns actually pulling players into traps and larger groups. I reiterate my point that everyone's first character should be a ranger and then you get warriors with brains.

But, like someone earlier I am concerned as to how you know it is a bot and not someone farming legit? spell it out in layman terms because I can sometimes repeat the same run several times if strapped for cash (which is most of the time) and was one of the first to do Elona after the Queen arrived; although I prefer other areas since the bots arrived, I sometimes still do Elona if a guildie needs a firewand. I am a bit concerned that Anet will nerf the solo 55 monk out of existence if people complain about farming too much. Lets face it 55 monk is the only chance monks get to kill things.

Nym

Fist_of_God · May 29, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

You do realise that sticker price does not equal profits, right? The actual profit per game is very likely less then 5 dollars which makes your grand conspiracy theory rather...well..laughable.

Going by your math that would come to the incredible amount of $30,000 a year, w00t! They can employ a part time coder for that!

Sorry, but your theory is silly beyond belief.

$5 a unit the only profit they make, and this being post-production and development? There is no way that could be correct, and I might be inclined to believe you if this was pre-development and production. Every copy that Anet sells at this point and time is more profit than $5 a unit. There is no more Prophecies development going on, every copy they sell now is padding the bottomline more than $5 per unit.

Zephro · May 29, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Question:
Why do you care how much extra money Arenanet makes as a result of this banning?

Loviatar · May 29, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fist_of_God

$5 a unit the only profit they make, and this being post-production and development? There is no way that could be correct, and I might be inclined to believe you if this was pre-development and production. Every copy that Anet sells at this point and time is more profit than $5 a unit. There is no more Prophecies development going on, every copy they sell now is padding the bottomline more than $5 per unit.

development costs were not even figured into the sales price.

lets have at it from a totally different angle shall we?

how much per copy do you think Anet gets after the following

MANUFACTURING COSTS
WHOLESALERS PROFIT
RETAILERS PROFIT

then subtract the costs of catching the botts and sorting out the few who were caught by accident who are not bots

AND THE BOTTOM LINE IS........?? (per copy)

Lepton CFd · May 29, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

I
Hate
Bots
.

Kook~NBK~ · May 29, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fist_of_God

Sorry but your logic fails here, just as much as some think mine has at this juncture of the thread. I have yet to see 1 person quit because of others botting. I am sure you lose no sleep at all, as well as many others, over how many botters are in the game at any give point in time, much less quit the game because of that particular reason.

Re-read what I said. I was careful to include the phrase "(among other problems)" The fact that A-Net deals with problems like bots, game glitches, skill imbalances, scammers, cheats, etc. helps to keep a satisfied customer base. Customers will stop patronizing a business if the services and products that business sells are unsatisfactory, simple as that.

If you go to a resteraunt and get bad service and/or bad food, you'll think twice about visiting that restaurant anytime soon.

Guildmaster Cain · May 30, 2006, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

Ahh, but sometimes there is!

Everyone knows that at the heart of the GW Bot situation is an evil consortium that has arranged for the real world economy to be directly affected by the economy of GW! Anyone else notice that the ecto prices dropped right as gas prices went up?

And who's the head of this diabolical system?

GWEN!

edit: Seriously, thanks for doing something about the bots!

Hmm i think there is some serious evil person behind the screens...

Gwen = Glint = Blind Seeress in Bukdek Byway =Gaile Gray

I dont know how the Seeress is called, but I wouldn't be surprised if her name started with a G...

Anyway... probably in the later chapters we the mysterious driving force of all this evil will be uncovered to be Glint. Who has been orchestrating everyting from the start of prophesies as Gwen. Glint is ofc the alter ego of Gaile...

And then ppl realize that finally GW has a storyline that can almost rival the Legacy of Cain series...

I just hope Anet wont ban me from the game for publishing their secret plans.

generik · May 30, 2006, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

You do realise that sticker price does not equal profits, right? The actual profit per game is very likely less then 5 dollars which makes your grand conspiracy theory rather...well..laughable.

Going by your math that would come to the incredible amount of $30,000 a year, w00t! They can employ a part time coder for that!

Sorry, but your theory is silly beyond belief.

5 dollars a box? You must be joking right?

The cost of developing guild wars is capped, they only have to pay these devs so much money a month, they probably worked out how much bandwidth an average player would utilise over his or her lifetime, the storage used for each user account is.. as you can see from your inventory and stash.. minimal.

So it costs $45 to press a CD and print a tiny piece of paper with a access key on it? I certainly don't think so. In large enough quantities they can probably do it for under $2, and factor in maybe $10-20 for R&D, but the rest would be pure gravy.

This is intellectual property you are talking about, so don't act as though for the $50 Anet is actually producing something. It doesn't.

Arangja · May 30, 2006, 10:19 AM // 10:19

OK guys/ladies I have a question plz, I have been playing for about 4 months now and had to work my but off to get my characters where they are

and enjoyed doing it too. I hear a lot of ppl talking about the bots (robots) but still don't really know what the heck they are, do they actually go farming or do they just stand around towns selling stuff?? I know this propably sounds really noobish but i would like to know.

Furthermore I am not trying to knock anyone here plz, I think everyone is entitled to their opinions but making such a big argument about it then for me is not necesary. Fist that is not only directed at you but a lot in this forumn, why does it always have to end up in arguments about whos oppinion is right and who's is not (does it matter, or is it a macho thing)

Guildmaster Cain · May 30, 2006, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Well 'bots'can be a bit confusing, because the designation is used for different things:

1) Bots: aka hench, NPC, the computer controlled characters that help people during missions. For instance someone can shout: 'no bots plz!' when you are forming a party, he simply implies he doesnt want the hench players but real people in it.

2) Bots: aka 3rd pary programs controlling human players characters with computer scripted commands. These are the kind that are being banned, since they are owned by people that let them kill things and get loot 24h per day. Usually you can recognize these bots, when they keep running into walls, because the NPC merchants have been shifted (they can also sell loot to merchants if scripted so), or do other stupid things.

lyra_song · May 30, 2006, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

5 dollars a box? You must be joking right?

The cost of developing guild wars is capped, they only have to pay these devs so much money a month, they probably worked out how much bandwidth an average player would utilise over his or her lifetime, the storage used for each user account is.. as you can see from your inventory and stash.. minimal.

So it costs $45 to press a CD and print a tiny piece of paper with a access key on it? I certainly don't think so. In large enough quantities they can probably do it for under $2, and factor in maybe $10-20 for R&D, but the rest would be pure gravy.

This is intellectual property you are talking about, so don't act as though for the $50 Anet is actually producing something. It doesn't.

Lets see.

Cost of development. Something $$
Marketing. Something $$
Shipping and handling. Something $$
Labor. Something $$
Taxes.Something $$
Marks up from secondary parties.Something $$
Maintainance of server costs.Something $$
Game piracy overhead. (most games calculate their cost with the loss of money from pirated games already)Something $$

Dealing with a bunch of whiny players on a forum: Priceless.

Arangja · May 30, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Thx Cain for the explenation, just still don't really know how they do it though. I have gone farming a bit with my w/mo and i hardly ever get the same spawns, so if these characters are scripted how do they know what to hunt and what if they die and get rezed, this guy must be some scripter to take all of this into consideration to make it all work.

How about Anet employ some of these scripters to improve on the AI of the henchies (just a joke

Still think they must be exelent scriptors to take all these changing factors into consideration when running a char with scripts only

Loviatar · May 30, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

So it costs $45 to press a CD and print a tiny piece of paper with a access key on it? I certainly don't think so. In large enough quantities they can probably do it for under $2, and factor in maybe $10-20 for R&D, but the rest would be pure gravy.

.

i dont mind genuine stupidity because as they say stupidity happens

but when you deliberately twist facts that is different.

pure gravy?

you are assuming the wholesale distributor is working for free and does not have employees to pay and facilities to maintain for distribution to the retailers.

oh yes we cant forget the retail cut can we?

they have employees and expence to pay as well.

so how much is actually left after

manufacturing costs
distribution costs at all stages
wholesalers profit margin over costs
retailers profit margin over costs.

2 pc game magazines a year or so ago actoally gave profit figures (offline games to be precise) and the company was happy to get 4-8 dollars clear profit per copy

Kook~NBK~ · May 30, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

so how much is actually left after

manufacturing costs
distribution costs at all stages
wholesalers profit margin over costs
retailers profit margin over costs.

You forgot Taxes and Advertising!

Arlan · May 30, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We banned the bot users strictly to protect the game. I am not even sure that people who were banned for bot use would buy a second copy and restart. If they rely on bots to get anywhere, and they know we're actively pursuing bot users...

The "resale to bot users" was never part of our discussions about doing this. Our interest--pure and simple--is keeping the economy good, and keeping bad people out of Profiteer Corner--at your expense!

Sometimes companies do things with all the right reasons, and the outcome is completely good. Sometimes there is not a conspiracy to theorize about.

Hi,
While i completly agree with the banning of bots and various game cheats how can you be sure the correct account gets closed???
Whats the trigger / search criteria that flags an account to say - "bot" or "sells in game items for £2.40 on e-bay" or some such.
My point comes from the fact that after nearly 900 GW hours gaming the 'net of capture' (elite ranger skill) seems to have snagged a few innocents. Of which i am one!!! My has been closed for the selling live rule - which i have never bothered/ or need to do.
I dont farm - dont collect - anything i dont need i give away (usually to guild buddies)
So - how much (or what) is a player allowed to give away without the account being flagged?? This is the question.anyone know???.
Ban the bots - waste of space anyway. I'm not even sure how they can benfit a player anyway? explaination anyone?

The last two weeks discussion with the Support team ( or really the automated response server) is on www.starcainam.com - forum. If anyone wanbts to check.

Anyone aware of any other threads of this nature - the fight for reinstament continures.!!!